This is continued on from this post in another thread
https://www.marchaudio.net.au/forum/main/comment/602fbc1bf74c980017656431
Hi @oldgoalie3
I agree and disagree 😀
The measurements do tell us what's going on, however interpretation with speaker measurements is everything. This was the point Doug from Soundstage was making before he "disappeared" from ASR.
I agree with the fundamental ideas that Toole et al have concluded regarding speaker design; that a flat smooth on axis anechoic response with a smooth off axis response is required. However real speakers are always compromised and will always deviate from this ideal. Said deviations may be subtle but have a big impact on the sound. Understanding the effect of any particular deviation is crucial and not always obvious.
I have spent about a year on and off developing our first speaker ( Sointuva ) and that process has taught me a lot about the correlation between the measurements and perceived sound.
In some areas subtle differences can make surprisingly large differences to the sound. Some of those differences aren't easy to read in the measurements, but they are there. One part of the frequency range and its slope affects how you perceive another part of the frequency range.
My view is that as Amir hasn't spent time developing speakers he doesn't have a good understanding of those subtleties and is taking a very broad brushed approach to the data and drawing conclusions that won't necessarily be supported when listening.
More importantly is the flawed methodology he uses. He measures and sees the data before sighted listening. So he is already primed to think the speaker may sound a certain way from his interpretation of the measurements.
He would be the first to criticise (and has) others who ignore the effects of bias, yet he blatantly ignores it for this testing.
He then EQs the speaker to correct what he has interpreted in the measurements to be wrong and miraculously everything is always fixed! It's just a self confirming bias loop. It's bad science.
Basically I don't trust his sighted and uncontrolled subjective listening impressions any more than anyone else's. He would be best to just publish the measurements and leave out the subjective IMO.
Alan,
I get that and agree. I think that's what I was trying to say. His impressions are as valid as any other hifi reviewer's. I read his reviews and wonder why he has to EQ everything to make it sound good (to his ears). Based on the premise of the forum, he'd be better off just to do what you suggest: just publish the data, like he does with amps and dacs.
I appreciate what Erin from Erin's Audio Corner's reviews. He does all the objective measurements but also listens to music that's not considered 'audiophile' demo tracks.
Hi Alan, can you please elaborate on the following?
« In some areas subtle differences can make surprisingly large differences to the sound. Some of those differences aren't easy to read in the measurements, but they are there. One part of the frequency range and its slope affects how you perceive another part of the frequency range«Â
I am curious to know if you have been able to draw some general conclusions by correlating your measurements with your listening impressions
Hi Eric
Well one thing that became clear very quickly to me was balance of the low frequency range has to be right. It has a disproportionate effect on people's perception of the sound compared to the higher registers.
Also the trend and slope over a frequency range is critical. 1 dB high or low over a wide frequency range can ruin the sound. However that level of anomaly in the frequency response when viewed on a graph may appear insignificant.
This is complicated by the fact that what you hear in the room is not just dependant upon the on axis frequency response. It's affected by the nature of the off axis sound emanating from the speaker.
Well as expected I was banned from Audio Science Review where I have been a significant contributor for many years.
On the forum a member asked if I was going to send a Sointuva speaker to ASR for review. I replied no due to disagreeing with some of the testing regime. I said nothing further or more contentious than that and was promptly permanently banned for being "disrespectful".
I have previously tried to constructively discuss my concerns about Amirs (the site owner) speaker testing regime with him, but that post was deleted by moderation. So it's clear that I have valid points which Amir doesnt want publicly highlighted.
Andrew Jones the talented and highly respected speaker designer
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0915/Andrew_Jones_Elac_Article.htm
has just slammed one of Amirs reviews of his designs. He points out that the speaker was significantly over driven and could find no trace of the issues Amir reported when the speaker was under normal operating conditions.
There appears to be a definite lack of skill, understanding, scientific rigour and care applied to ASRs speaker reviews with Andrew above having to explain some pretty basic things to Amir
We as a manufacturer cannot afford to risk having the reputation of our products or brand being damaged by incompetent and inaccurate reviews so will be have no further interaction with Audio Science Review until such time it demonstrates an adequate level of technical expertise and professionalism.
We will of course be endeavouring to get several professional reviews of our Sointuva speaker performed in the near future.